Monday, June 25, 2007

Are Enrollment Differences for Gallaudet and NTID fair?

quicktime

YouTube viewers, click here (3:54)

Based on the enrollment requirements between NTID and Gallaudet, it leaves us a question to evaluate whether or not it is appropriate. The ACT scores required are as the following:

NTID:

AOS: 14-16

AAS: 14-19

AS: 18-21

Pre Baccalaureate Programs 18-21 High School Diploma required

Gallaudet:

Bachelor's Program: 18 or more

But accepted students lower than 18 to enrolll "remedial" program. High School Diploma not required; A Certificate of Diploma (a.k.a. IEP Diploma) accepted

FYI, I will be posting one more vLog on Deaf Education then I will be off for the summer. I promise myself not to discuss about deaf education or work related issues during the summer as I will talk about something else more fun!!

23 comments:

Oscar the Observer said...

Interesting...

I don't have an opinion one way or other because you know how massive a bureaucracy schools are (whatever level they are at) but isn't NTID primarily for technological training and Gallaudet University for training in other stuff? I am definitely curious as I am applying for G.U. right now :). I mean I still am applying whatever happens but you know famous saying, "Forewarned is forearmed." Not that I would need that much arming since I already know that ACT will pass the mustering with the score of 25. I remembered when I told my sister-in-law's sister about the score, she pinched my nipple. *gasp in pain* What?! She said that I am unfairly smart and I was puzzled because I calculated the score against the total and it was D but she explained that ACT is not same as regular exams. Now I understand plus painfully remembering *groans then laugh*.

Kyung Don said...

Barb,
There is and still having controversy about New York Regent. Teachers and parents complain about why students are having difficult passing the Regents. The Regent system have not change since God knows when.

Kabo said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Deaf socrates trail said...

Hi Barb DiGI
Okay, You research many things very well. Let me tell you that Gallaudet University and NTID are not standardized education but special education that are designed for Deaf and Hard of Hearing students. There is no comparision of any standardized education like RIT, MIT or NYu or USCB or other universities depend on state's requirements but those school for the Deaf and include Mainstream programs are still special education not regular standardized educational system. Under the law that requires to provide special education for those disabled people you might not like that but in reality they are still considered under special education. I do not believe Gallaudet University or NTID offer regular standardized education except require HS diplomas. I am not sure, however they are very similar except NTID only provides AA degrees which means two years almost equal to many community colleges they offer AA, but AA degrees for those people who get AA degrees have great opportunity to find job much easier than Gallaudet University. Gallaudet University is liberal art but I never consider that way,

Oscar the Observer said...

I am not sure I understand, socrates trail. Are you saying that NTID and Gallaudet University do not have the same high standards expected from other "high-profile" colleges or universities? I am puzzled.

Stephen J. Hardy said...

I understand the requirements; however, Gallaudet is designed to give the Deaf and Hard of hearing students an opportunity (safety-net concept)to enroll and take college level courses.

I have heard arguments blaming Gallaudet for not preparing students for graduation. I believe it is not Gallaudet named as the source for failure. It goes way back to the parents and high school. I have heard horror stories that parents do not show up for IEP or visit classes to see how their child is progressing academically.

I understand educators of the Deaf are trying to figure how to implement a nationwide model how to teach the Deaf correctly.

Gallaudet only gets what the high schools send them and I am sure that majority of intellectual high school students choses to attend elsewhere knowing the school lives up to its reputation.

I believe Gallaudet and NTID will bend its rules to admit more poor academically skilled students with hope they can turn around by their second year.

This is becoming a cycle which we see that failure is repeating itself over and over. *sigh*

Barb DiGi said...

All I am pointing out is that Gallaudet DOESN'T require a HS diploma only a certificate of diploma and NTID DOES require a HS diploma. I am comparing between these post-secondary programs per se as I am not comparing Gallaudet and NTID toward other colleges/universities.

Deaf Socrates Trail, you are right that special education is labeled for deaf and hard of hearing students who attend to such programs but why require going through rigid standarized program that is equivalent to regular education in order to receive a high school diploma in the first place?

Now isn't it ironic for NTID that provides 2 year associate program requires a HS diploma while Gallaudet, a so called liberal arts four year program, doesn't?

Deaf socrates trail said...

Here, I respond that question, Okay tell me what is the difference between special education and regular standardized education. I am sure most of Deaf and Hard of hearing community might not be aware any difference. In fact both Gallaudet university and NTID never have real equalizations of any Higher education like Harvard or State universities or MIT or RIT or CIT then tell what is the difference between them, depend on how much you know about the differences. I am here to bring up big controversial issues special education and standardized education! Thanks

Barb DiGi said...

Let me tell you one more thing especially to Stephen..it is true that I have seen Gallaudet bending backwards to admit poor academically skilled students. It happened to a student whom I had known with almost no academic skills. He was filled with a false hope that he would succeed in Gallaudet. His ACT scores were very very low and he did not have a HS diploma but he admitted Gallaudet in remedial program. After one semester, he ended up owing 7k since he barely passed all courses that he lost his vocational rehab support. He is now jobless and stuck with this debt.

There are a lot of students ending up like that. Is it worth admitting them in the first place knowing that they are doomed to fail? They are better off to be told what are the realities for them to pursue their post graduate goals. Having them thinking that they would pursue a bachelor's degree just because they got accepted in Gallaudet distorts the reality that they would benefit far off better to pursue trade/vocational skills where they are able to get real jobs rather than being stuck at home with no alternative skills.

Jarom said...

Ahhhh.... The topic about Gallaudet... Interesting topic that you brought up Barb DiGi. Gallaudet University is very well known for bending backwards to admit any students. I have many friends (I am not saying that they are stupid) but they have very low academic skills and they came from various deaf schools. They basically fell through crack of deaf system. They only got the certification instead of diploma. (honestly, I have never heard of public high school handling out certifications! Except deaf schools) They got accepted into Gallaudet but they didn't stay there for very long.

When I was senior in high school, I applied at various universities. (keep in your mind, I never apply at Gallaudet) The recruiter came to my high school one day and told me that I got a full ride because of my GPA and high ACT score which I don't know how they got a hold of my score and GPA. I declined the offer for a university of my choice.

I have many people who are Gallaudet graduate that either told me and continue to tell me that Gallaudet are not worth it... Makes me wonder....

I believe that Gallaudet should change its requirement and make it tougher for the deaf people to be admitted... That's my opinion...

Karen Mayes said...

Hmmm... I believe that both Gallaudet and NTID are aware of the average reading scores of deaf high school graduates, so they "bend" the rules to accept them. NTID has a program that helps bring up the students' literacy skills so that they could pass English composition at RIT, like Gallaudet having a prep program (I heard that there was no prep program anymore, so I don't know.) So Stephen's assertation that both NTID and Gallaudet were "special education" institutes makes some sense to me, even though in an unfair way.

Which brings me to this question... what is the average drop out rate of each class at both Gallaudet and NTID (I mean, what percent does each class at NTID and Gallaudet successfully complete their studies?)

Barb... have a great summer, chilling by your swimming pool :-).

Karen Mayes said...

Plus the revolution in the deaf education, especially with Bi-Bi movement, could change everything within 10 years from now. So we might see the raising of the acceptance requirements into both NTID and Gallaudet in the near future.

Stephen J. Hardy said...

Barb:

I understand your points and suppose you are an administrator at Gallaudet. What would you do without jeoparding federal funds?

Suppose you need to fill in X number of students to be eligible for X number of dollars in funds. Then you realize that you are short of 70 students to meet that requirement. Therefore 70 students will be enrolled regardless of their academic potentional.

Now, President Davila has to revamp the requirements in order to keep the funds that Gallaudet needs to operate. I am curious, will they go towards "warm bodies" route?

If Gallaudet goes to that route and how much money will Gallaudet lose this time due to lack of qualified student enrollment?

I do not envy Bob Davila's job.

Karen Mayes said...

One more thing... NITD's associate degree programs are often 3 years, not 2 years. I believe it is due to the co-ops/internships which extend 2 years to 3 years...

So it often takes the majority of NTID students 3 years to complete the associate degree programs.

Might be irrevalent to Barb's posting though.

Deaf socrates trail said...

Hi Excat that is what Deaf Socrate's Trail wants to see more clarification of what is all about! Agreeable! Gallaudet University is special education that allow to bend its rule for enrollment. and NTID might be allowed to bend its own rule for enorllement! Upgrade Reading and writing skills are most challenge for learning at both schools. From time to time they always change their own rules and depend on the money by the number of enrollement that could meet both school's need.
Now a degree- AA and bachalor; NTID's program offer technology plus one year of catch up which mean improve the skills in reading and writing or math I am not sure but Gallaudet University's four years of bacholor, but in practical they do not have full four years I would say at freshman are mixed with prep and freshman not equal to what universities offer. It requires to have "catch up" means writing and reading must be passed in order to get full freshman that is what Gallaudet University and there is no comparison with any universities, basic some burrow the idea from others, Gallaudet University has it own way based on special education that allows Gallaudet University do what is needed!
Sometimes when I look at a degree from Gallaudet Univ means worthless,and AA degrees from NTID's only technology to meet today's demand,

Todd said...

I'm with Stephen J. Hardy here; I do not envy Bob's job at all!

The disconnect between graduation rates and admission rates have been alarmingly enough without needing the MCHSE's attention. That discrepancy has to be addressed somehow.

And yet, by addressing graduation/retention rates, Gallaudet may be forced to raise admission standards, and cut off borderline/marginal students. Thus, the institution may be in jeopardy for a 'declining' enrollment and student tuition and/or federal funding may be substantially reduced.

Gallaudet is indeed between a rock and a hard place. Let's hope a feathery pillow drops from the sky soon! :) I suspect that a compromise would be in the works, that will satisfy MSCHE's concerns and that of its principal funding source.

Oscar the Observer said...

We need more Gallaudet alumni making comments here because it feels like G U is being painted 'dark colors' of inferiority that I CAN NOT accept without some alumni presenting the other side. I think comparing admission requirements and the universities' qualities are potentially tied here. I can be wrong since I am only a prospective student but I am curious.

mishkazena said...

NTID may not have a choice as it is under RIT. As a university, RIT may require a high school diploma for all its colleges.

As special programs heavily subsided by Dept of Education, both NTID and Gallaudet are expected to give students more academic opportunities to make up for possible educational deficiencies. Even though Gallaudet no longer has a prep program, its English Literacy Dept addresses the weak English skills, offering up to two years of remedial English for those who need these services. As long as deaf schools continue to give academic certificates rather than diplomas, Gallaudet strives to give these students another opportunity to achieve academic success. In this case, these deaf schools are to be blamed, not Gallaudet.

Unfortunately there is a high degree of drop out. Keep in mind that many students do go to deaf universities for social reasons and may not fully motivated to be serious students, so that complicates the picture somewhat. Some students come with serious academic weaknesses and manage to succeed through persistence, hard work and support system.


My understanding is that Gallaudet wants to raise the academic criteria for enrollment. However, Congress also wants high enrollment numbers, so where are the qualified Deaf students? Due to more options now than ever and many mainstreamed students prefering to continue their mainstreaming at postsecondary schools, this is a difficult task for Gallaudet.

Karen Mayes said...

Yes, I understand Mishkazena's POV.... it is really the deaf schools which are responsible. That is why I saw that we'd see if Bi Bi movement being implemented in more deaf schools would make a difference within a decade or so.

It is funny, because I emailed to a deaf mother, congratulating her on her son's kindergarten graduation and she said that she would pursue the split time mainstreaming of her son because of academic reasons... that she wanted her son to have the advantage of academics in the hearing world and told me not to ever regret my decision to mainstream my son due to academic reasons... that social always comes later... academic first.

Not easy, I know.

lexin said...

I believe deaf students have a much better chance to strive and success academically when they are mainstreamed with hearing peers. With high achieving hearing students setting the bar, deaf students will be motivated to work harder, read more, and generally more aware what they are in for a their education. Unfortunately for Gallaudet University, the bar is set too low or there are simply not enough brilliant minds on campus to simulate the growth of the collective learning spirit. Smart people beget smart people, and the same is true for not-so-smart-folks.

The advantage of NTID over Gallaudet therefore becomes apparent because students at NTID are presented with a richer learning environment.

To turn the tide around, Gallaudet must reform. If I were the president of Gallaudet University, I will set a rigid acceptance guideline for both undergraduate and graduate students. Let’s say, 85 percentile of the average Ivy League universities standard should be a good start.

Barb DiGi said...

Are we hurting the students more by allowing them to admit Gallaudet knowing that they have not met the "criteria" of academic standards that they are most likely to set for failure? This is like sugar coating their hope into a false direction.

Gallaudet will be worth it once standards and reputation have improved.

Oscar, I am an alumni by the way. I was a student there for a couple of years (I enrolled without a hs diploma by the way during my senior year) and recalled how easy it was for me and for some students where we got to play around a lot. That was one of the reasons why I transfered to RIT.

Good question Karen! I wonder what are the statistics as well. Anybody able to answer that question?

Stephen and Todd: There is no easy answer to this one. A part of me would want to save Gallaudet but another part would be doing unfair service to students who are set to fail. Perhaps we should look at a variety of level programs such as offering Associate degree programs or training school if that is necessary to make the campus "full" for now. However we still raise the bar for standarized admissions for undergraduate programs.

This is a dilemma and yes I don't think anybody in their right mind would want to fill in Dr. Davila's shoes.

MK: Actually NTID in the past had been accepting students with just IEP dilploma and that was just changed a few years ago. I am not sure if it has to do with RIT policy since NTID is considered a "special" school that may not be required to follow the similar expectations of RIT.

Now my question MK..is offering two years of remedial English effective? How many percent made it to complete undergraduate program? If a large percentage of students from remedial program actually dropped out then what are we doing to cause more harm than good?

Lexin: I cannot agree that it is better off for some deaf students to go to mainstreaming program. Too often I had been dumped from those who were considered mainstreaming failures and us teachers had a lot of cleaning up to do. I have seen in my own eyes that students who graduated from where I work at a school for the deaf are more successful than those who transferred from mainstreaming programs. But I understand what you are saying..I am a product of a successful (academicwise, not socialwise) mainstreaming student and the main reason why my parents decided not to enroll me in a school for the deaf was because that school did not challenge deaf students enough.

Now where I work in NYS as I just explained, the standards and expectations are a lot higher for deaf students than where I grew up in Penna. Had this program existed where I grew up, I would thrive there like I had seen students from where I work. But again it depends heavily on the intelligent/communication level of peers where stimulation and challenges are more stressed. And of course parents' involvement is the key.

I strongly believe having both choices, half mainstreaming and half residential school experiences, are more idealistic. I have seen plenty of successful deaf students having this opportunity with success. I just also believe to go to a school for the deaf at early ages where deaf students are able to set up a strong language foundation and become independent readers through bilingual programs. When they get older, they will be more receptive to academic challenges. Again every deaf child is different as some of them may thrive in mainstreaming environment alone but may be deprived of social-emotional growth due to isolation.

Deaf socrates trail said...

So I am Gallaudet alumni myself! i know a lot of Gallaudet more than NTID. I am not very familar with NTID that well!

Domvera said...

Hi Barb,

I understand all comment's POV between Gallaudet and NTID's academic approaches.

I am also an alumni of Gallaudet and NTID. I don't mean to brag myself but in realty, I am very motivated person to continue my education at both colleges where I faced many challenges. At the same time, I fought my own personal and professional struggle in academic, technology, and social life through 7 years of my college experience. I gave my grateful thanks to NTID for their rewarding gift of technology education. Indeed, it was enriching amount of learning in the technology classroom to use the tools and visual capablities. The people at NTID are extremely wonderful to me. Despite of my age, I do still struggle with my time management to study homework and social life but I managed well. When I reached RIT's Writing in Communication II, I failed almost three times. You know the Liberal Arts Department especially English have highest expectation for students to pass the courses before enrolling any liberal arts courses and RIT technology classes. It was very discouraging for me despite of my best effort to continue and to comphrend in English tools. With my frustration from the barriers of Liberal Arts, my passion was enduring to my college education and achieve. Like any wars around the globe to win something, that what I want to pursue and to climb the top of the mountain to success. With the great obstacle from the teachers, I fell off. Then I determined to transferred to Gallaudet University and my high goal to get the bachleor's degree.
After taking the English exam during New Student Orientation at Gallaudet, then I received the bad news on the result of score. It disappointed to take one redemial course for one semester. Next day, my academic advisor informed me that I moved up to the college English. Surprisingly enough, I learned that the first test were taken during Deaf Way II that were low. The second one where I took during NSO was revealing high score. What a great relief! The rest of English courses challenged me.
Then I graduated with bachelor's degree in Communication Studies at Gallaudet University in a year ago and I thanked the great people for giving me the bright future and great motiviation despite of my time management. The most important is to desire your own achievement to complete college courses toward the graduation. It was the rewarding experience at Gallaudet.
Yet, I am still learning to read and to write in English to improve my English skills for job opportunities.

It is my understanding that the consituties at Gallaudet University are working to improve the mission statement during the summer and change some curriculum this fall in order to meet MSCHE's expectation also to retention of the students through college years without the decline of enrollment.

I pray that Bilingulism will continue to educate in the residential schools, NTID and Gallaudet.

Take care,

Nick